[Flying fisho]

Thanks for the comments Steve and I had full intention of letting it hibernate with my HK F4U Corsair until I am ready to stick twitch it with the big guys. I believe I am advancing reasonably quickly because of mountains of sticktime on Phoenix and (as per Darren’s discipline), I believe I am well on the way of controlling the planes & not letting the planes control me. Again quoting Darren, any sticktime is good time for a learner.
On Phoenix I can comfortably handle both the T28 & the BF109 to takeoff & land, do lap after lap of level flying, perform basic aerobatics, pull out of intentional spins etc, but am realistic enough to know the grey matter works different outside of cyberspace.
Kellets tried to tell me that the T28 was a good plane for a novice but I think more as a 2nd plane for a low wing learner plane because of its stability. I rarely take store comments as any more than just sales pitch, but am keen to learn if that was a fair comment & if so, would the BF109 fall into that category. $169 may be a great deal but not if I need the T28 before I can advance to it.
I too apologise to Bob for taking the Parkzone Radian Pro thread off topic. I will try to be more courteous in future.

Cheers

[Kedumba]

If it's any help,
When it was time to buy my first plane to lean to fly on, Darren and several others advised me to buy a Parkzone T28 Trojan. I was a bit dubious as well as a low wing plane went against _EVERYTHING_ I had seen, read and been told about learning to fly. I also figured that these guys must know what they were talking about as they had been flying for years whereas I had never flown at all so I bit the bullet and picked up a specktrum DX7 and a BNF T-28. Kieran was kind enough to "dial it down" for me so it was a lot less responsvie than a normal T28.

I learned to fly on this plane and found it really easy. It is a very stable plane and will fly in whatever direction that you point it. It's the plane I learnt to fly on and it's the plane I still fly today almost 2 years on. I have had a couple of other planes including the Luton Minor that I scratch built but I still keep comming back to the T-28

I've not flown the BF09 but I would guess that it would probably be a lot more "twitchy" than the T28 and harder to control. As a learner I found that you tend to "over control" the plane and I think the BF09 would be a lot less forgiving of this then the T28 would be.

Hope this helps.
Mick

[Flying fisho]

Thanks Mick, your comments regarding the T28 are appreciated & are similar to what I have previously heard at the club. I am not disputing the points value of the T28. Given that I am learning on my HK 182 Cessna & E-flite Apprentice & copious hours on Phoenix, also given that the PF109 is available at such a good price, I suppose I am wondering if choosing it as an introduction into low wing plane flying would be too much of a transition.
As I previously stated, I am aware of the mental difference between Phoenix & reality, however I can (2 out of 3 ) score a soccer goal flying the PF109 on the Phoenix Kambah Field. What I dont know is, apart from the mental difference, how close does flying the warbirds on Phoenix physically compare to reality.
Cheers, Wayne

---

Oops, BF109
Wayne

[paulj]

Unless you change some of the setting for each plane
in Phoenix I think that they are all pretty docile compared
to the real thing.
Also are you using any wind when you are flying?
Most of the time at our field there is a fair bit which can get
quite tricky sometimes.
Still having said that, the more stick time on the sim that you can get
is still better than no stick time at all.

[smuzz]

In my experience, there is not a close correlation between flying a Phoenix model and the real thing. Even if you set the simulated weather conditions so that you've got gusty unpredictable winds as we are accustomed to having at our field, there is big difference between our real T-28 (which I found to be a bloody handful) and the simulated model which is so easy to fly that it lands itself. Admittedly, our T-28 (which is tuned up the way Junior likes it - and that probably explains a lot) could probably be toned down a little, but that's not really going to make it just like the simulated model.
Where Phoenix (and other simulators) are really valuable is not in the high-fidelity realism, but in getting you to react automatically (subconsciously perhaps) to certain situations. For example, you're on short finals and a gust of wind comes through - you're only a metre off the ground and suddenly the plane is yawing and rolling, this is when you don't want to be thinking through things, an instant application of two controls (perhaps more) is required. It's the automatic reaction to things like this that you can thank your simulator for, later on.

My guess would be that if you can fly your high-wing trainer around confidently at the field, take off and land under variable conditions then you'd be fine to make the transition to the stock Bf-109 if you had all the control throws set to modest levels.

[Flying fisho]

Thanks, excellent advice fellas, might bite the bullet and strike while the price is hot & wait for the enthusiasm to cool down before flying.

[Flying fisho]

I recall seeing a few other PZ warplanes at Hobbies in the Hills at reasonable prices, it was just that the BF109 at such a cheap price that sparked my interest. The did not have a T28 (maybe all sold because of popularity). Had a look at parkzones website and also saw the P-47D Thunderbolt which I think I recall seeing at Hobbies in the Hills at a reasonable price. They also had a similarly sized Jap Zero which looked ok.
Gary mentioned the BF109 tip stalling at low speeds, any body familiar with these planes. All reports lean to the T28 but I was hoping to save a few dollars.

[smuzz]

My opinion only here, and I'm still a learner myself - but I don't think you'll actually need a T-28. Get one if you want to of course, they're outstanding in their versatility - being able to accommodate a really wide performance range, but I don't think you actually need one to complete your learning path because you've already got an Apprentice. The Apprentice is designed to do the job of preparing a learner for ... whatever comes next.

I haven't flown a PZ Bf-109 (yet ... Owen and I have one that we're slowly assembling, but it's a couple of weeks away from its maiden) so I can't attest to the tip-stalling, but the majority of those with experience say that a warbird with a tapered wing-plan will tip-stall. The Apprentice and Phoenix will ensure that you're ready for that if/when it happens!

[Flying fisho]

Thanks Steve, that provides me with all the clarity I need. You may be a learner yourself, but what you are saying makes perfect sense.
Am now happier to snap up the bargain & let it await my learning curve to catch up.

[smuzz]

No worries Wayne - some time down the track we can fly the Bf-109s in formation, along with ChrisM who also has the airframe version. Now that would look good ....

[paulj]

I'm afraid Owen and I will have to warn you that our field
is a "NO FLY Zone" for German and Japanese aircraft and will be severly
dealt with by the Mustangs

[Flying fisho]

Maybe when Steve & I in formation, take care of the mustang, you may have raise your hand and give a "Sieg Heil" to us

---

Am still researching for my choice, difficulty in landing seems to be the major drawback for the BF109 and I perceive that to be because of the comparative short distance between the wheels. The P47d seems more stable with the wheels further apart & the Mustang inbetween.

[smuzz]

Yes Wayne, the 109 had a narrow-track undercarriage, which made ground handling difficult on the original machine. Apparently, of the 30,000 real Bf-109s which were built, almost a quarter (Wikipedia says 10+ %) were lost to takeoff/landing accidents. Even the Spitfire also had a narrow-track outward-retracting undercarriage and on nearly all ARF models you see these days the legs are intentionally moved further apart which looks crappy if you're used to looking at photographs of the original machine. To Parkzone's credit, they've not followed that line, and maintained a pretty-much scale undercarriage for the 109, which translates into ground handling difficulties.

The Parkzone P-47D comes with fixed undercarriage like the 109, but does facilitate installing retracts. It has a wide stance with the undercarriage retracting inward - this does make ground handling easier.

The Parkzone P-51D doesn't have any undercarriage - it lands on the simulated oil cooler (... that is, if the wings don't leave the fuselage in flight!).

[Flying fisho]

Another well researched reply & again thanks Steve.
My continuing research landed me at the Horizon Hobby site ( http://www.horizonhobby.com/ ) who tend to stock a lot of PZ planes & much like HK you can look at reviews posted by buyers/fliers. The BF109 pretty much got a caning by the majority & primarily because of motor, take offs & landings, & durability. Got a 60% recommendation rating compared to 96% for both the T28 & P47.
Whatever did we do before the internet to assist us when trying to make educated purchase decisions. Will go to H.I.T.H. with a more educated mind this time. Thanks to all who are contributing to my education. It is a real credit to all of our members. To all readers who are contemplating joining, these guys are the best.

[Flying fisho]

What should now be reasonably obvious (it is to me), I am obsessed with progressing to more advanced planes to cater for my future needs.
I think I need to slow this down by catering for another desire & build a balsa model from scratch.
Can anybody direct me to some free plans (with good instructions) on the net.

[Kedumba]

Can anybody direct me to some free plans (with good instructions) on the net.

I can't do that but I can tell you that the magazine RC&ME often conatains free plans for planes to scratch build. I've built the Luton Minor from one of their free plans, see this thread for the build log. I still have the plans for it if you want to borrow and have a go at building one yourself. I found it was a good plane for a first time scratch build in that someone like myself who had never done anything like this before managed to put it together get get it flying.

Mick

[smuzz]

... and to follow on from Mick's suggestion: The other magazine worth buying regularly is Quiet and Electric Flight. Both of these British mags contain free plans every second issue or so - sometimes they're not that spectacular (something like a depron witch on a broom - that sort of crap) but often they're excellent plans for proper planes. I remember seeing a .32 sized RV plan in one of them once which looked excellent.

Unfortunately, the two Australian magazines (RCM News and Airborne) never offer a free plan, which I think is pretty poor - especially when Airborne actually has a plan sales service. You'd think they could throw us a biscuit every now and again. I've stopped buying these mags for that reason.

[Flying fisho]

Probably because so far I am only a buddy pilot, I am getting as much enjoyment out if putting together the foamies I have bought so far. The work needed to get a HK foamie in the air is a good starting education. Being a toolmaker from before my desk jockey days & having physically built a house I enjoy the self satisfaction achieved from a finished product. Having read the Luton Minor thread, I am most interested in those plans if you dont mind please Mick.
Steve, is Quiet and Electric Flight available locally or by mail subscription.
PS I think Paul's comment must have scared me (as well as product reviews) as I have deserted the Luftwaffe (sorry Steve , no Bf-109s in formation), bought the P-47 thunderbolt from Hobbies in the Hills $249 Bind-n-fly ($329 almost ready to fly from Kelletts). This will motivate me to get solo ready, but I am still willing to be patient until ready. Stick-time Phoenix here I come!!!!!!

[smuzz]

Steve, is Quiet and Electric Flight available locally or by mail subscription.
PS I think Paul's comment must have scared me (as well as product reviews) as I have deserted the Luftwaffe (sorry Steve , no Bf-109s in formation), bought the P-47 thunderbolt from Hobbies in the Hills $249 Bind-n-fly ($329 almost ready to fly from Kelletts). This will motivate me to get solo ready, but I am still willing to be patient until ready. Stick-time Phoenix here I come!!!!!!

I pick up copies of Q&EF from the newsagent in Winston Hills mall, but I'm sure it would be available elsewhere.
There will probably still be Bf-109's in formation as ChrisM has the airframe only kit too. No worries, when you and Greg (who also has the PZ P-47D) get yourselves in the air, you'll have to deal with Chris and Owen in the Bf-109s - good luck with that!

[Kedumba]

Having read the Luton Minor thread, I am most interested in those plans if you dont mind please Mick.

Sure not a problem. I'll dig out the plans and the magazine and bring them with me when I'm down at the field next. I *think* I know which box they are packed in. I haven't unpacked everything from my move yet.

While I was building, I scanned the various parts of the plans and printed them out on my printer so that I could use them to build off and still keep the original plans fairly clean. Here is a ZIP file that contains of all the scans that I've taken if you want to have a look see what your up for. It's a little large at 35mb but these images can be printed out on the printer (no scaling - just 1:1) and tape them together. I also used a little computer trickery for the large sections like the wings in that I printed out the 2 sheets for the left side, then horizontally flipped (or was it vertically??) the picture and printed them in "reverse" to form the right side of the wing.

More than happy to go into more detail with you if you wish. Maybe if your keen, we can start a new build thread where we can pass on ideas and lessons learned.

Mick

File: Luton Minor Plans.ZIP

[Flying fisho]

Thanks for that Mick, a lot of cutting & taping to start with. Once I have done this, I will strain the brain & decide if it is within my scope. Were there any further instructions that came with the plans.

---

I pick up copies of Q&EF from the newsagent in Winston Hills mall, but I'm sure it would be available elsewhere.
There will probably still be Bf-109's in formation as ChrisM has the airframe only kit too. No worries, when you and Greg (who also has the PZ P-47D) get yourselves in the air, you'll have to deal with Chris and Owen in the Bf-109s - good luck with that!

[/quote]

Thanks Steve, there is a large newsagency at penrith, will look for it in my lunch break.
I will need lots of luck in the air battle, whether that is by plane superiority or my playing skill catch-up or give-up, only time will tell. But as testified by a guy at HK Carringbah, who has experienced BF109 flights, the heavy torque rolls on take-off (as also reported on the Horizon Hobby website BF109 reviews) will challenge the best of fliers, so maybe it may not make it into the air for the fight. The same thing happened in reality & caused the demise of many Luftwaffer pilots.

[Kedumba]

Were there any further instructions that came with the plans.

Not really. The magazine has maybe 4 or 5 pages of very general instructions.. things like "cut out the pieces of the wing and lay them down, then glue the ribs into place"

Whilst a bit vauge, a complete amature like me managed to bumble my way through it. It's mostly common sense kinda stuff. ie, the magazine says make the fusealage, the plans show you what the pieces look like and how/where they fit. Just a matter of cutting the balsa to size and piecing it all together. Once you get something that looks kinda like the magazine photos then you glue it.

A lot of it was "built on the plan" which you can see from some of the pics on the other thread. For example, with the tail, I printed out and taped togehter the relevant pages and then placed it on a flat board. Next I covered the board in cling wrap to stop the glue sticking to the plans, then you just lay the pieces of balsa that you cut out earlier to match the plan and glue....

[Flying fisho]

I pick up copies of Q&EF from the newsagent in Winston Hills mall, but I'm sure it would be available elsewhere.
[/quote]

Picked up Feb 11 issue of Q&EF today, the depron Fantom jet plans look interesting for a future build. Looks like that mag might be a regular pickup for me. Depron seems like a common build material, I presume there is a distributor somewhere other than expensive hobby stores.

I am still more interested in the balsa plans that Mick provided at the moment. Will follow that path and am enjoying learning about aerobuilds. Now if only I can stop twitching my thumbs on Phoenix, I might even get started.

Also picked up Airborne mag, with a very positive review of my P47.
Have a good easter.

[smuzz]

I flew mine for the second time today, just on 3S to suss some things out. This is the motor I've got in it at the moment (I mentioned this to you, Jason) ...

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store...duct=17601

... but if it is truly capable of 885 Watts, then I'll eat my Willows Cup! I was very impressed with the specs for a 1000kv 3536 motor, but when I bench-tested it at only 38 Amps (far short of the 60 Amps it's apparently rated to) it was too hot to touch.

On today's flight, the propeller and/or the huge spinner and backplate and/or the lugging great prop-nut were all out of balance and there was no way it was ready for the 4S battery I have planned for it. I've got a bugger of a job getting all that stuff balanced, but it's got to be done.

Overall flying characteristics are great though - even though the power train is not yet up to the level I have in mind, it was still a typical Parkzone machine - very well behaved. I'm looking forward to getting it finally set up properly and completing the paint job on it.

[secant0give]

I use one of these to do my balancing and they are AWSOME !

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Dubro-Tru-Spi...ntrol_Line&hash=item51aa98954f

[smuzz]

Thanks mate - yes, I'm not sure my magnetic balancer is going to be suitable.

[secant0give]

Thanks mate - yes, I'm not sure my magnetic balancer is going to be suitable.

If you have a look at the Dubro web site it should show you how it can be set up to balance spinners, I even used it to balance my G160's rotor after I grouted the magnets. I probably should balance my Rare Bear's motor's rotors as well.

[smuzz]

Yeh - I think that might be the go. Thanks Jason!