[corsair_pilot]

Hi guys,
It's been a while....
I've finally gotten married, and moved and starting to settle down finally, and before the Mrs has any ideas I want to get back into my hobby. I've been flying a few helicopters of late, and am wanting to get something a bit bigger. I have been flying the MSRx and the MCPx without too any issues.
I was looking at the Blade 300x, anyone flown one of these? The 400x might be a little out of my price range right now, but would it be better putting a bit more money aside and getting something a bit beefier, or will the 300x be fine? Any other suggestions?
I've spent a lot of time flying the 300x on the phoenix flight sim

[Skidz]

Once you go above the micro helis, they break when they crash and cost $ to repair. Have a look at 450 class helis and suggest a peek on HK. They are cheap to buy and so are the extras (motor, servos, blades, etc). They will come in a kit form (not ARF) but building a heli is as much fun as flying one. I learned to fly with a HK450. It was my pride and joy until I went bigger again (twice). I still have it.

[corsair_pilot]

Once you go above the micro helis, they break when they crash and cost $ to repair. Have a look at 450 class helis and suggest a peek on HK. They are cheap to buy and so are the extras (motor, servos, blades, etc). They will come in a kit form (not ARF) but building a heli is as much fun as flying one. I learned to fly with a HK450. It was my pride and joy until I went bigger again (twice). I still have it.

Sweet thanks for that!
As I've had a look and there appears to be myriads of 450 models to choose from on HK, what would you suggest looking at?
Realistically i'm never going to get into the popping type 3D, i'd probably do some medium stuff, but similar to you, am far happier flying these things around in scale, and everynow and then cos i can doing flips and stuff in them.
What sort of boom should I look at? Gyro etc Am pretty set on wanting flybarless

[corsair_pilot]

Whats the difference between torque tube and belt tail?
450 is quite large!!
Is there anything wrong with the blade 300x? Or should I really look at that bigger model?
Partly thinking ease, and money... I do like the bigger helicopter. Just want to make sure I get the right thing with the right gear in it

[helijeli]

Speaking of Flybarless, I bought the Blade 450X last June (actually a 50th Birthday Pressie),
and it's been a great Heli. I wouldn't go any smaller if you're learning (except for micros as Skidz mentioned). The flybarless makes the flying so crisp and precise and handles the wind better as well. I've got a bigger 550 (flybarred) as well and I love it too just for the size which gives it a solid feel in the air and easier to see but it's not quite as crisp as (even) the smaller flybarless Blade. Skidz mentioned building being as much fun as learning to fly and I'm also considering a Hobbyking 450 just to build one as all 3 of my Helis came pre-built (the Gaui 550 originally owned by Skidz). HK is Good for the budget, as compared to the Blade 450X which cost $479 BNF (half of that is the Beastx Flybarless\Receiver unit), and the better quality Aligns etc only get more expensive.
Also (re: torque tube), Torque tube is better as long as you don't crash - it consumes less energy by using gearing rather than a belt, but doesn't tolerate mishaps so well. I'd stick with tailbelt while learning but don't quote me - much more experienced Heli Pilots like Skidz and brotherblonde are more informed in the technical aspects and flying of Helis!

[corsair_pilot]

Thanks heli...
I may need to pick skidz and your brains as I look at putting one together.
Trying to work out gyros and servos etc... I've heard sooo many things!!
Look forward to getting something, but just don't want to end up with a lemon

[Skidz]

Jonathan,

It comes down to budget. Pick an amount you are prepared to spend then work backwards.

In 2009, my first heli was:

HK450 kit $40.00
3 x HXT servos $15.00 (3 x $5.00)
1 x MGxxx tail servo $15.00
1 x Turnigy 3700kv motor $18.00
1 motor pinion $3.00
1 x gyro $20
2 sets carbon fibre blades $30.00 ($15 x 2)
1 40A ESC speed controller $30.00

all up around $150. I flew the ar5e out of it doing figure 8s and circuits. Yes you need to add the receiver and yes, it was flybarred. I upgraded the ESC (not sure why. A new one didn't do anything differently). I replaced 3 servos after various prangs and several sets of blades, plus new head assemblies and feathering shafts which bend easy. Then I decided an Align canopy because the HK one looked crappy. Then I decided a better gyro was worthwhile (and it was). Add another $180 at the time (Align GP750). On reflection, I should have just bought an Align 450 SE kit. It all adds up

Also, nothing wrong with flybar helis. They handle very nicely. Many pro fliers still insist on flybar and F3C comps require flybar helis. The build cost is much cheaper too.

check out Zeejay Hobbies. Great chaps and super nice. http://www.zeejayhobbies.com.au/helicopt...t_277.html

Free shipping on orders over $150 at the mo.

Anything with belt driven tail is generally flybarred. Flybarless seem to come on kits with torque tube tail drive.

---

Sweet thanks for that!
As I've had a look and there appears to be myriads of 450 models to choose from on HK, what would you suggest looking at?

Most kits are "clones" of the Align 450 SE V2 or the 450 PRO. Both models are tried and trusted designs and no doubt why the Chinese clone them. Parts are so close to the originals (dimensions but not quality) that they can be interchanged between kits.

[corsair_pilot]

My thoughts are:
HK 450GT Pro V2 3D ($57.99)
NTM Rotor Drive 34000KV ($20.25)
Turnigy Nano tech batter ($17.95)
Orange Rx 6Ch with failsafe ($12.91)
HK401B AVCS head lock gyro ($21.73)
TGY 306 tail servo ($21.73)
Hobby King Digital Servo 2.2kg / 12.5g / .11sec
Combo Price: $5.72 (3 of)
Turnigy super brain 40ESC ($29.99)
325mm carbon blades ($8.34)

Is this likely to at least start me on a good heli that i can upgrade in time?

[Skidz]

Yes, good choices.

You will need a motor pinion too.

Download an Align 450 PRO V2 manual. It will be the same. Look at the recommended pinions in there. It depends on main gear teeth and motor kv. 3400kv seems low to me. If year gear up with higher "T" pinion, it will bog down. You are better off with higher kv motor and smaller pinion. From memory head speed is around 3000 rpm. Search on Helifreak.com or Archeli.com.au if you need to. Plenty of info there.

[corsair_pilot]

Picture showed it coming with a pinion gear. 13T pinion with 150T main gear.
I did have a look first, or would you suggest still getting another pinion gear?

[kizza42]

Best to get a few if you can just in case you want to change motors down the track.

Do yourself a favour and order 2 Heli Kits, you will want/need spares...

[corsair_pilot]

I was considering that... seems cheaper to have a 2nd kit than it is to buy spares for some of these things.
I'll grab a few of everything I think, as a just in case... so point getting it up and going, and crash it 1st time I go out and have to wait for parts again!
What set up have you used in yours Kieran?

[corsair_pilot]

Hey guys,
I was also looking at some of the scale kits you can get for the HK450 like airwolf and Huey's.
I'm guessing these aren't like the canopies you can just change at will, once you've converted to the scale model you're flying it as a scale model?
I can see me ending up with a few scale versions as well as an actual "3D" version.
If I'm looking at scale helicopters could I get away with the HK450 CCPM?
http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__1...Ver_2.html

Just wondering if the cheaper airframe is the way to go if it's going to be replaced with the scale kit??

[Skidz]

That's the heli I bought in 2009. It's a belt drive (good for a learner if the tail strikes the ground). Get extra blades though. The ones in the kit are rubbish. The canopy is awful too. They are cloned from an Align 450 SE. This model didn't clone Align's second generation (version 2 or V2) 450 so look for an Align 450SE manual on the interweb.

450 size helis have small parts and small screws so the scale fuse will be a tad "fiddlesome" but plenty out there put scale fuses on 450s for looks. That reminds me, you will need some tools to put a heli together (hex drivers, loctite, pitch gauge, etc). This kit has soft metal screws which strip out if you use the wrong hex size tool. From memory, some screws on the frame weren't metric to make life just a bit more complex.

This is the motor in my 450. http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__8...700kv.html

It's been flying for years now. I have a 12T pinion on it.

[corsair_pilot]

I might look at that motor, get the extra grunt out of the motor... or would brushless be any better? there is probably a thread on here somewhere for that.
What size main drive gear are you using?
I think I'm going to get the http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_...duct=25191
it is also belt drive so I figure i'm safe enough.

I have some tools, but was looking at getting more of them, as well as the pitch gauge.
Loctite and that sort of thing I have at work, so i'll grab a bottle from there.... sadly we don't sell the smaller tools, otherwise i could get a really cheap set out of work again also...

When it comes to the build, is the assembley just putting screws in pre drilled holes, or at least well marked holes? Or is there going to be a bit of measuring and stuff and then putting the screws in?

[Skidz]

CP,
The kit requires no drilling etc. Heli kits are really an assembly challenge. Dave's tip: use loctite only where the manual says to and not too much.

The motor IS a brushless outrunner unit. My main gear on the 450 is 150T so it is the same as this. This looks like a nice kit. FrankR has the 500GT. Nice kit for the money.

[corsair_pilot]

Sweet!! thanks for that Dave.
I'm actually quite excited.
I'm going to get this one, and will possibly leave it looking they way it comes, except for a different canopy, but i'm going to do a project with the old man and put in a nice scale fuselage, but might do a 500 or 600 sized heli.

[corsair_pilot]

Hey Dave,
What battery are you using with that motor?

[Skidz]

2200mAh 3S Rhino (20C). Sorry, I haven't been watching the thread.

I still have them 3 years later so I like the Rhinos (from HK). The blue Turnigy are also good (2200 3S 20/35C). I have 6S Blue Turnigys for the Trex 500 which are 3 years old too. Still going. If HK made the blues in 10S I'd buy them for the Logo - but they don't. Have to get the Nanotechs which are ok but I think over hyped.

XT60 plugs preferred.

You will read a lot about batteries impacting helicopter performance but don't get involved. You need to be a good heli pilot before you can appreciate what a good battery can do. Normal batteries are just great for normal pilots .

[igor]

Dave, I think you won me over with the HK el-cheapo build. I got really lost with HK servos as there were millions of them and I thought I needed to get 4 $30 ones plus expensive gyro. At around $250 with two heli kits that means I can get DX7s straight away and have way better receiver than the heli

corsair_pilot, I'll watching your progress with interest, if you can, post some links of the actual products that you ordered, that'd be great.

Seeing as I already spent the cost of my my micro heli (by buying two or three of everything whenever it breaks), getting a whole another kit for spares at $60 seems like a bargain. I can only imagine that it only gets more expensive with bigger birds.

[Skidz]

There are lots of servos out there. They are similar in spec but differ in quality. Read forums and see what others use / don't use. I first used HKT900 servos. They are good on cyclics but strip out after any main blade strikes. I also had one make my ESC over heat. This happened over a few months by which time I had replaced them. I now use these http://www.zeejayhobbies.com.au/servos/-..._7378.html .

[igor]

Fair enough. When the servo kicks it after a tail strike, which gear does strip out? The external one or of the internal ones?

For the ESC, I'm liking the look of Superbrain 60A rather than 40A, as it has a 4A BEC, as opposed to 2A one. According to some forums, 2A is borderline insufficient to run digital servos.

[Skidz]

Igor, tail strikes generally don't take out servos. If they are belt drive type, they can take some teeth off the main gear and the belt drive gear coming off the main gear.

You tend to lose a servo when the main blades strike the ground. You lose your main blades too as they don't generally survive. Forces get pushed through the links from the swash to the servo arm. The small plastic gears under the cover loose teeth. When it first happened to me, the servos looked fine but I noticed I had a hard time hovering and it frequently shot up/left and was a real handful. It was missing teeth allowing the swash to slip without command.

HXT900 servos are so cheap you wouldn't repair them even though you can. Try them by all means but get 6 at least - possibly 8.

If you ever upgrade to flybarless in future, get the Align metal gear ones on the link I gave you above or equivalent units, and replace them on your heli. Flybarless set ups have links that literally go from the main blade to the servo arm putting a lot of force on the servos mechanically. Flybarred helis have extra links that reduce the forces at the servo so not quite as tough on servos as flybarless.

[igor]

Sorry skidz, I mean blade strike. Makes sense about the FBL heads working/wearing the servos much harder than flybar ones. I'd say FBL is way in the future for me, going to get comfortable with simple mechanical setup first before throwing a pretty complex bit of electronics in the mix

[corsair_pilot]

Hi Igor,
Sorry hadn't noticed an email pop up to say there had been activity on this thread.
Well I've bought the HK450 and well lets just say, I wish I had saved up and got something straight out of Align, blade or another quality manufacturer. I've had one servo on cyclic fry itself (means replacing all 3) got another cheap one (stripped that one out) meant another 3 servos. Now have decent Align servo's set up. It was running better. The tail servo was working ok.
I found out later that i've got the belt slightly twisted, so tail rotating same direction as the head (my fault, doesn't matter what heli i bought) and as such meant i had my tail blades in the wrong way.
Fixed tail blades up and have now bent the shaft in the tail grips, and have bent the main shaft. Haven't had it off the ground yet by the way.
I don't know how good the gyro is yet, but i would strongly suggest going a better quality kit. I'm now replacing my tail unit with the align one. Oh and the tools and screws out of HK are pretty cheap, i've destroyed a screwdriver trying to undo the ball links in the tail slider.
Upon saying that, with more experience I would have done a better job with this build.
so some of it is the lack of quality of the product, other is the lack of patience and experience of the builder (me).
So please don't hear me trying to turn you off the HK one, but i'm going to be building a 500 or 550 with the old man soon, and I'll be buying an original and not a clone.
Will be going for the good gyro etc....
So as it stands I need to get a few new planes cos i have 7 servos that need a home!!

[Skidz]

My HK450 is really an Align/HK hybrid.

The servos were cheap: they are now Align.
The $18 gyro sucked: it is now an Align GP750
The canopy was god awful. It is now an Align canopy.
The speedie was shit. It is now a Scorpion.
The head smashed first blade strike. I bought a metal Chinese aftermarket head. The main shaft and feathering shaft bent. I replaced them with Align ones.

Now it flies good and I have learned heaps.

CP, I have an Align 500 ESP FBL you might convince me to sell you. I love it but don't fly it any more as I fly the Logo pretty much all the time now. Last flight was April 2011. It is in my avatar picture. Never crashed. Not even close. Maybe I'll keep it. Hmm, maybe I need to sell it. What to do, it's such a nice machine.
   

[corsair_pilot]

hahaha yes, mine has already become a hybrid, soon the tail assembley will join the list of align parts. It now has the align main shaft and servos. Canopy will be changed soon as well.... just really don't like that canopy that comes with it!!
Hmmm.... you make an interesting offer there Dave, you offer that just as I was going to start to bug dad and build a goblin 500!!

[igor]

OK. You people suck :-P Now I'm torn again. Let's see what the deals are like on the Align kits in a couple of months time.

[corsair_pilot]

Hey Igor,
I'm new to the hobby in both helis and planes.
If you have experience with building then you'll probably be ok.
Your best bet is getting down to the field and having a chat with the guys like skidz. Wealth of knowlege and information.
The cheap frame certainly a plus, but be prepared to have to replace certain parts fairly quickly.
If I had built mine correctly and not been stupid main shaft n tail still would be ok. But be prepared to replace some things very quickly.
I know several ppl who have had no problems n plenty that have.
Certainly a good radio is a start. I got my dx8 n was doing lots of SIM time.
Hopefully it'll mean when I do finally succeed in getting the bird airborne I'll be better equipped.
Bit of extra money sometimes doesn't go astray!

[Skidz]

There are two pathways to helis:

1. Spend the extra money up front and buy a quality helicopter. If you are in for the long term, this is perhaps better (if you have the funds).
2. By a cheap clone if funds are limited and/or you are not sure if helis are your thing but you want to try it out.

You wont get a $500 heli for $150. And, there is absolutely nothing wrong with upgrading a cheap clone part by part. It wont cost you any more and you get to understand your heli and its workings more intimately.

I went #2 then #1. I think you have to have a cheapie to appreciate a quality one .