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Car Battery
#1

Okay guys this might sound like a really stupid question, however, I want to buy a Car Battery to charge my lipos at the field.
Is there anything special I need to know as in obviously 12volt, but Amps or whatever? Any ideas where to pick up a reasonably priced one?

It wouldn't kill me to miss flying for one day, but then again, why risk it.
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#2

Cris you want to get a deep cycle battery rather than a car battery as they have more storage and are designed to be flattened and charged where as a car battery is really designed for constant charging via alternator and quick bursts of high current to start cars.
Boat batteries are normally deep cycle.
Super charge in Blacktown might be a good place to go.
Shop around at super cheap too as they sometimes have good deals.

Or

http://forum.rcflyingclub.com/showthread.php?tid=1006&pid=21908#pid21908

They also have deep lead acid deep cycle around $50 cheaper than the sealed unit battery

What Do You Mean Theres a Throttle Curve ?, Its Either all the way up or all the way down Tongue_smile
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#3

It depends on how big the lipos are, and how many of them you want to charge on the day. There are three main varieties:

1) Starter batteries. The most common and cheapest type. Lots of very thin lead plates, sometimes perforated to maximize surface area. Designed to deliver bursts of very high current, which is exactly what they get called upon to do while starting a car. This type of lead acid battery really dislikes being anything other than 100% full. Even just a few deep discharges are enough to kill one of these.

2) "Hybrids" or dual-use. Still meant for use as engine starters, but somewhat more robust with thicker plates. Capable of dealing with some amount of deep(er) discharge, though going under 50% is still a good way to destroy "hybrid" relatively quickly. More expensive than "type 1" but not as expensive as "type 3".

3) Deep cycle. Heavy bastards with massive thick lead plates. By far the most expensive (of course!). The really, really good ones can take considerable abuse, defined as discharging down below 50%, but given the expense of the battery it almost doesn't make sense to mistreat them.

As an example, charging a 3S 2200mAh from storage voltage (3.85V/cell) to full requires approximately 1300mAh to 1400mAh from a 12V source (~85% efficiency). A 100Ah deep cycle AGM battery, which is about as good as it gets in this scenario, could charge dozens of those without trouble. It would set you back about $300 and weigh ~30kg or so. Bad backs not recommended.

Let's say we pick a more manageable 50Ah battery and decide never to discharge it below 80%, in order to prolong its life. That would mean it could only do 10Ah worth of charging before it needed to be brought back home and discharged itself. 10/1.3 = about 7 of those 3S 2200mAh packs. If they were being recharged after a good long flight (down to 20% left in the lipo), the 50Ah battery might only be capable of 4 or so recharges if we stick to the "always at least 80% full" rule.

If the lipos are even smaller, like say 2S 500mAh packs, virtually any car battery can keep cranking them out all day. Big lipos are far more problematic. A 6S 4000mAh pack will suck around 8Ah out of a 12V source to charge. Do that twice, and many "starter" batteries will no longer start (the car). Even a 100A deep cycle battery could only cope with around 6 such charges, unless it's discharged below 50%, which constitutes abuse.

... and that's why I bought myself a little eBay generator to try. It's a 1000W 58dBa jobbie, and I brought it to the field last Sunday. It's reasonably quiet as these things go, but still too annoying around people (it would annoy me!). I took it over to the side of the field, near the heli area shrubs, and I think the noise was basically gone back where most people park their cars and chat. I'm still not sold on the idea, because carting around the generator is not exactly convenient either, but it's easier than a 100Ah deep cycle back-breaker, which still needs charging at the end of the day.

Perhaps the club could think about installing one or two semi-permanent enclosures (three-sided steel boxes) to muffle the sound of small generators, with "charging tables" nearby. If such an installation was done over near the gear container, I reckon it could be made almost inaudible, and IMHO it would enhance the club.

Just an idea Smile
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#4

Thanks guys, much appreciated for the feedback. I guess nothing is as easy as walking into KMart and grabbing any old Battery. Seems like Deep Cycle is the way to go.
I apologise "Disoriented" I do not know your name, but I do know who you are, many thanks for the detailed explanation, and of course to Steve who is always willing to help out.

It wouldn't kill me to miss flying for one day, but then again, why risk it.
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#5

Chris, as others have said, deep cycle is the only way to go (for lead acid batteries anyway). A typical car battery will die a quick death in this application.

Another option is to buy used. Large format sealed 12V AGM batteries can be picked up used on eBay and the like for around the $1 per Ah mark (i.e. around $100 for a 100Ah battery).

Only trick is finding the right kind of "used" battery. A recent vintage (year or two old) UPS or ex-telco backup power battery is very likely to give many more years of service in your application, whereas another which has been pulled from a camper after a decade of service is less than scrap metal value.

This style of battery is normally rated for around 1,000 cycles to 50% DoD (depth of discharge) when new, which is usually the sweet spot of the cost/performance ratio. So, if you figure out the maximum number of amp-hours at 12V you'll ever need (using Andre's approach above) and then double it, that's the minimum size of battery in this style you should look for.

With one caveat... discharge rate.

While our LiPos are frequenty rated for 30C or more, deep cycle batteries are typically rated at 0.2C or 0.1C (no, not a typo). That is, they are not built to deliver high currents, and are instead expected to be gently discharged over several hours (i.e. exact opposite of car starter batteries). So, charging your LiPos at 1C as you discharge them throughout a day's flying would be just fine, but flying out your set of batteries and then attempting to recharge the lot in an hour or so would require a proportionally larger deep-cycle battery for good service life.

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#6

Ditto on what Andre has said. You might like to checkout this website:
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/artic..._batteries

An alternative idea is to use a solar panel. It may not be able to supply 100% of the current (especially in winter) but it does allow a smaller capacity battery. That said a panel (and charger) capable of supplying 5amps on a sunny day will set you back over $225 if you can get it at the right price.

I also agree about the bad back problem. My 40amp hour battery is really too heavy to load and unload each trip so now I leave it in the van and take the charger to it. I'm currently looking at installing a permanet power management/ charger into the van so the secondary battery charges when the car is being driven.
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#7

When you concider the informed discussion above about charging with deep cycle batteries
I think your almost certainly better off with a gen set at around the same price as a deep cycle battery and with many advantages over the battery.

Another good alternative is what I do. I try to keep as many of my planes as I can using the same lipos, after all I don't fly two planes at once.

That way Instead of buying a heap of different lipos I buy five or six of the same pack and I use a parrellel charging board available from HK, to charge them all at once before I go to the field. The board which simply has a bunch of plugs connected in parrellel allows up to 6 lipos to be balance charged or put to storage level at once. And it only costs about $8......AWSOME !!



I usually know how many flights I can get in and how long I'll be at the field and what plane I'm taking so I have three chargers and can very easily charge up to 3 lots of 6 packs the night before.

It's rare that I have much more than 12 flights on a day So I'm very happy to do this.

If say on average a pack costs $25 (many of mine cost less) then you can get 12packs for $300
12 flights is a lot on a day and once I get home any that I don't use go in the same charging board to get put back to storage level. Then in the fridge straight after that. I only want to have to manage lipos not a lead acid as well. After all I need the Lipos but the lead acid is only a means to an end.

If I spend the same $300 a different way, the lead acid might coast me $150 and I'd only get 6 lipo packs. I'd have to put them on and wait for them to charge while I'm at the field instead of just flying and I'd have the added bonus of having to carefully manage an expencive lead acid battery as well.

I have to look after my lipos any way, to get best life out of them, so why not have a few more rather than lugging about a huge, heavy and expencive deep cycle battery.

Also helpful is that, if I charge the night before, I can charge my lipos at a lower c rating because I'm not in a hurry to fly them and that will make them last longer and work better. I've often thought it's not optimum for lipos to be put straight on the charge hot, after just being flown hard. With this approach all my packs are charged from nice and cool slowly and I believe I get much better value from them.

It does require me being a bit more organised but it does work well!!

“The knack of flying is learning how to throw your machine at the ground and miss.”

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your thoughts turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."  ~Leonardo Da Vinci
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#8

Thats a Great way to Look at it Jason in spending Money on more Lipos rather than a expensivce 120 amp Deep Cycle battery.
You could then possible buy a smaller lighter 60amp deep cycle unit for those lipos that need charging on the day rather than killing your car battery and lighter to lift in and out of car.

You know you can buy retractable Trolleys from bunnings or office works that you could put that heavy deep cycle battery on for carting around,
though i guess you still need to lift it in and out of the car.

Steve Smile

What Do You Mean Theres a Throttle Curve ?, Its Either all the way up or all the way down Tongue_smile
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#9

Everyone has a different approach to the care, charging and maintenance of Lipo's.
I use a very different approach to Jasons,but it has served me well for over 5 years now.
I use a very expensive 143Ah Sonnenschein Deep cycle gell cell battery that weighs about 40 kgs. Yes, its heavy but I only have to pick it up and throw it into the back of the van for a flying weekend. I trickle charge it during the week so it is ready to rock every weekend.
I can run a HK Battery charger that has 4 individual charging stations built in all weekend charging 5 or 6S batteries and it has never let me down.
I believe, through a lot of trial and error, that charging your batteries at 1C is the only way to get longevity out of your Lipo's. I have a few 5S 5000 batteries that are 3 years old and they are still giving me the same performance after 300 flights that they did when they were new.
I charge all my batteries straight after each flight and have only had 1 6S 5000 battery fail during flight in 5 years of flying.
I never run my batteries below 3.8 volts per cell and adjust my flight times to make sure I land when they are there or about that mark.
Different strokes for different folks.
Gazz

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Don't ever let the fear of landing keep you from taking off!
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#10

Very good info Guys. I've also done some research on Lipos. I also try to keep to a few types of Lipos, shared between aircraft. I've also got a Quad charger (Plus my original single), so I can charge 5 packs at a time. The best way to store Lipos is in the fridge at 40 - 50% charge. Apparantly a Pack that is kept at 100% charge at room temp will permanently lose 20% of it's charge each year. One kept at storage charge of 40% will lose 4% and add the fridge and you're down to 2%. Not a bad way to increase Lipo life!

John Jelovic
Planks: Lark, California 28, Skyartec Cessna 182, Skyfun, Extra-300S EPP 3D, Stinger 64 EDF, Rare Bear 1400mm,
Durafly P51 Mustang, Edge 540T 3D.
Helis: Blade mCPX, Blade 450X, HK450GT V2Belt, Gaui 550 Hurricane.
Spektrum DX9, DX7se & DX4e
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#11

Here's a link to those parrellel charging boards I mentioned earlier

http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__1...T_60_.html

and one for the deans plug as well

http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__2...ctor_.html

“The knack of flying is learning how to throw your machine at the ground and miss.”

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your thoughts turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."  ~Leonardo Da Vinci
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#12

Once again Thanks to everyone for the info.

And again it shows why we joined Clubs.

It wouldn't kill me to miss flying for one day, but then again, why risk it.
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